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George Galloway radio I did not say that
now in another Britain a better Britain
and I pray that we reached there before
he's too old my next guest would be a
member of a senate or an up our house in
the British Parliament he's the
professor of children's literature he's
every father mother grandfather and
grandmother's favorite children's author
I have myself a house full of his work
he's Michael Rosen and he joins me now
Michael welcome to the show good evening
George no we both know uh Jeremy corbyn
very well uh and we both know that he's
not an effing anti-semite and he's not a
racist so why do you think Margaret
Hodge Dame Margaret Hodge no less in
Parliament in front of journalists
shouted that in his face the other night
well it is very peculiar she's known
Jeremy for 40 years I should think at
least and I don't think she's ever
leveled that allegation at him ever
before and if she really does think that
then the way to do that would be to
raise it through the instruments in the
labor party or in private so that sort
of strange what seems to have been like
a shouty thing but went on behind the
speaker's chair in the House of Commons
it was obviously a a political
demonstration on her part she wanted it
to be noticed and she wanted the whole
press to see it because we have a battle
royal on at the moment what is quite
clear to me is that there are people in
the labor party I'm not in the labor
party myself but uh the the
Parliamentary labor party who would
rather uh the labor party was split than
for Corbin to win and there is in their
eyes a great danger in my eyes a great
hope that corbyn might win an election
if the tour worries go on eating each
other which is what they're doing at the
moment
so having consumed each other over a
period it's not quite possible the
government would collapse and somebody
would have to call an election perhaps
the queen who knows how it's done but uh
and the great fear for the Margaret
Hodge wing of the labor party or the
remnants of the uh the old Blair
government and a few and the new one the
new ones like chukaramuna and so on they
they they're getting ready to split I
mean I can tell you on very very good
evidence that prior to uh Theresa May
calling that snap election uh Alistair
Campbell was ringing up people in
television and others saying would you
like to be an MP in this new party I'm
about to form yes I predicted that
myself in my talk up uh in the beginning
and we'll come back to that Michael
um I think Margaret Hodge was in a sense
she was raising a banner for this
whatever you want to call it Thursday
eighth Way New Way old way whatever it
is and she was raising the standard for
it and saying this is what we're doing
and one of the ways we're going to do it
is to claim that somehow rather Corbin
and the people around him are raving
anti-semites I first thought it was late
at night uh some of these MPS like a
glass of champers or a bottle or two and
that it was some kind of aberration uh
some kind of regrettable incident that
could be uh massaged uh past but she
then took to the guardian and said that
she stood by her action and her words so
she does in the cold light of day
regard Corbin in these vile terms and
that speaks to the point you've just
made that this was a carefully
considered at least carefully considered
after the fact if not before I carefully
considered I call it a provocation oh
yes no and more than that it's
orchestrated in how she has presented
herself
so she presents herself quite rightly as
many Jewish people of Jewish background
present themselves at all times
reminding everybody as we do me too that
our relatives quite close relatives
suffered Grievous Grievous harm during
the Holocaust now when you do that in an
argument when you accuse somebody of
being an anti-semite you're in a sense
sort of draw them into this whole
terrible set of events that took place
in Germany and Europe between 33 and 45
and you draw them into it and somehow by
by connotation by by attachment if you
like that somehow rather it's implicated
that because they're you you first will
claim they're anti-semites and somehow
they're joined to this terrible thing
that happened so again and again when
the when the story was presented in the
news you heard that uh Margaret Hodge
was the veteran MP who herself had
suffered her family had suffered under
the whole in the Holocaust now is this
the same Margaret Hodge say for example
that the editor of the Jewish Chronicle
described in the Daily Express in 2015
as by saying she drags the entire
political system into disrepute she
would now be well advised to withdraw
from public life that wherever she is
she she uh she shows her sheer grub in
us she's so suffused with her own
righteousness that she thinks she is
above the standard she would impose on
mere mortals she shows jaw-dropping
hypocrisy she's too fat it's on and
prior to it is indeed the same and it's
the same Margaret Hodge that Stuart
Stevens took a whole page in the evening
standard to denounce sin in in similar
terms but the media tune has changed
doesn't it well we're supposed to forget
George the point is we're supposed to
have one week memories
so you know the fact that this woman who
at one time have you remember way back
when she was described as an Islington
Lobby and that somehow rather was all
part of the loony left then there was
this uh other phase in her life where
she was you know which she herself
described she managed with uh shameful
naivety we won't go into it just now in
case we stepped on some toes but then
there was another whole issue of when
she appeared to be behaving very well in
the uh standards Committee in the
auditing committee but it then turned
out that in actual fact she was guilty
of the very things that she was accusing
others of yes so there's been several
phases in the life of Margaret Hodge but
we're supposed to forget them and we're
supposed to forget that we're only
supposed to have a week in the life of
anybody so she's moved from this kind of
loving us into a kind of Jewish Joan of
Arc that would somehow rather she is
this sort of poor martyred figure and
therefore again gives validity to this
outrageous just sheer shouty match uh
behind the speakers chair all right and
then that then then he somehow evidence
because of Holocaust but the Holocaust
background that many of us have me
included the that is somehow evidence
that she must be right the same woman
who as I say the editor of the Jewish
Chronicle could describe us as as
totally hypocritical and be well advised
to withdraw from public life well she
hasn't withdrawn from public life oh on
the contrary she's right now bang Center
uh to it now I think you pointed out on
Twitter uh that uh that people who are
related to Holocaust victims in some
cases children grandchildren close
relatives murdered by fascism uh
throughout Europe in the 33 to 45 period
are only really allowed to bring that up
if they hate Jeremy corbyn if they are
people as many are who actually like
Jeremy corbyn like you who have a
similar background uh they're not
allowed they're never given that uh
credibility uh speaking as these are the
relatives of survive diverse of the
Holocaust it
it's those those of us
and when we say that
really uh who suffered the Holocaust
supports Jeremy corbyn that's like that
sounds like very odd doesn't it to our
ears but it's it's never been hurt it's
it's not it's not heard so the way it's
heard is that when you accuse Jeremy
corbyn of that it gives Credence to what
you're saying somehow rather she is a
more credible witness right this is this
is what's being claimed yes yes
leptin to print uh to make that very
point in in her defense I may say I
should say that even Blair doesn't say
that Corbin is an anti-semite and a
racist uh on news night last night as he
was predictably he stepped he stepped
aside from that one I mean he's also
outside of parliament so of course the
people are scooting around various
issues around libel and defamation yes
yes so he was being very very careful
now you also I think it was you uh it
was good enough to be you uh made the
point uh earlier today that when Corbin
is behind in the opinion he's a loser
when he's ahead in the opinion polls
he's an anti-semite and a racist well
he's moved miraculously from being the
incompetent geography teacher to some
kind of Nazi warlord so it is just like
extraordinary the kind of transformation
because again this is remarkable
especially as we know him so well
creating these constructs is creating
like a sort of Lego Factory around
somebody a sort of Lego castle where you
say one minute they're one thing and
then you hope that people have forgotten
that you were laughing at the fact that
he had a jacket that was like a bit worn
at the edges and that now you're
claiming that he's sort of running some
sort of Nazi Clique yeah so they kind of
flip-flop like that and somehow rather
we out there we're supposed to believe
these kind of manufactured uh stuff you
know well we'll see uh I suppose in in
the next polls they're certainly trying
hard enough let me move on Mike if I can
to
um what comes next because I agree with
you and did I said so at the beginning
of the show uh that there's no way back
from this really if you see the front
page of the Jewish Chronicle today uh
and you survey the last uh 40 hours of
coverage it doesn't seem to me there's
any way back from this Corbin cannot
allow this to stand and Blair made it
clear enough as have many others like
Chuka that if any action is taken
against the tower jar uh that uh that
there will be severe consequences inside
the labor party so I do think that this
is the cause celebra around which this
new political force is going to be born
now although neither of us looks it we
were both around when this happened
before and the sdp was formed do you
think it'll be the same kind of thing
people breaking away sitting as perhaps
is an independent group or do you think
Alistar Campbell's got a name and a HQ
and a bank of telephones ready for
something actual concrete and new well
we've got two or three things all going
on at the same time that confuses us so
I guess and I'm as confused as anybody
else so we have the whole obviously the
brexit Remain the soft brexit the hard
breakfast the breakfast the the cold
breakfast of the cold brexit we've got
all that going on with many fracturings
on all sides with the government propped
up by a group of people whose views that
if people just knew you know we're not
just talking about creationists you know
we're talking about people who are
bigots we're talking about people I'm
talking about the dup now we're talking
about a form of anti-Semitism that goes
utterly unremarked namely two or three
of their dup members are a form of
believe in a form of Christian Zionism
where all Jews in other words the Jews
which is often regarded as a very
prejudicial way of talking
should all move to Israel where we'll be
converted to Christianity or put to the
sword in order that the second coming
might happen now we can laugh at that
and say well this is just the fantasy of
some fundamentalists this is the same
lot of people who who prop up Trump in
America with massive amounts of money
and support and voting in the key States
and it's same thing is going on in this
country propping up uh Theresa May's
government and indeed turning up at the
anti-anti-semitic rallies alleged
anti-Semitism rally enough is enough
there they were two of these dup guys
and these are the people propping up the
government at this very moment it's
teetering on the balance that form of
anti-Semitism never mentioned and
meanwhile Stephen Pollard editor of the
Jewish Chronicle is calling on the
Jewish MPS to leave to create a new
party I don't know whether he is in all
seriousness meaning that they should
have a vote Jewish party or I don't know
but it seems like bizarre but he's
inviting the Jewish members of
parliament I think there are about 10
um to leave and meanwhile chukka who's
made a play for the last two years to be
the leader of this group you know every
statement that I ever see him make it's
always done with the kind of ultimatums
and the sort of when the pre it's like a
kind of foreplay isn't it it's a kind of
leadership foreplay that goes on of the
of the sort of positioning and meanwhile
behind the scenes Campbell and Blair are
alive and well I mean you know we
watched 20 minutes of a Blair interview
on Newsnight last night I mean it was
like a sort of laying on of hands
virtually you did yes now what I can
tell you I have a feeling sorry sorry
George I have a feeling quite genuinely
that they're they will take an
opportunity like this to to walk out in
some form or another and whatever
parliamentary system they'll use
renouncing the whip I mean after all uh
Woodcock John Woodcock has already gone
yeah without resigning so he's in a
sense utter contempt of his constituents
and just said I'm resigning why do his
constituents do his parliamentary labor
party think that was a good idea he
didn't say he just went
um and this is the man who does what is
regularly called by Jewish people go
explaining where the guy is a word
meaning non-jewish and you do instead of
mansplaining they do voice planing stand
in front of Jews and tell them what's
wrong with them yes what they should be
doing so does a lot of that well and and
indeed they declare some people to be
good Jews and some bad let me tell you
oh indeed I I'm I'm I'm one of the bad
ones so it's a form of anti-Semitism
well look I've got breaking news for you
because it's just dropped uh an
emergency emotion has been tabled to
amend the standing orders of the
Parliamentary labor party the emergency
motion stands in the name of Louisa man
and Ruth Smith and it is that the
Parliamentary labor party standing
orders be amended as follows with
immediate effect
that the Parliamentary labor party
accepts and abides by the full
International Holocaust remembrance
Alliance working definition of
anti-semitism including all of its
accompanying examples now this has been
tabled if the Parliamentary labor party
passes it a constitutional crisis will
then exist between the national
executive of the party and the PLP
because it's their contention that
whatever are the standing orders of the
Parliamentary labor party must and
they've accentuated the word must be
endorsed by the NEC I myself have a
different definition of the word must
there uh I would I would argue that that
word in that context means that those
new standing orders could not be in
effect unless they had the endorsement
of the national executive committee but
that may be the end of a needle uh
around which there'll be a bit of
dancing and a final Severance maybe but
I mean you know that's talking of
dancing on needles or dancing on pins or
whatever I mean this whole thing this
this definition of anti-semitism you
know it's a great cumbersome document
and I've I've read an article today in
the guardian by Brian klugo a philosophy
uh a professor and indeed Jewish himself
who says that the reason why the the the
the way that it's been
phrased by the way the labor party has
phrased it is a good way of doing it and
there's the people have argued about it
they've changed some some of the words
and there's four that the labor power
four Clauses for examples that the labor
party have taken out the problem is with
the whole thing I mean it's a shame in a
way I think that the corbinites of the
corbinistas have allowed themselves to
be hung out to dry on this thing because
they're trying to draw into the idea of
anti-Semitism the basic principle of
anti-Semitism when people are arguing
about it is do you dislike are you
hostile to do you hate Jews because
they're Jews that's the that's the solid
core of what anti-Semitism is and that
is a form of
prejudice prejudicial speech and writing
but there is also discrimination and
what makes me Fed Up is the fact that we
so easy really slide between these two
things so there we have the Windrush
Scandal here is an example of
discrimination people's lives ruined and
wrecked by racist legislation and racist
activity by the immigration authorities
which have fundamentally affected
people's lives livelihoods state of
mental health and indeed in some
occasions probably driven to early death
that's discrimination and then we have
Prejudice where we say foul things I say
to you George you are foul and horrible
because you are Scots that is Prejudice
yes yes that's Prejudice now of course
that is revolting and horrible but this
this whole code that has come in it is
not only Prejudice about you as a Jew
because and we know all the old tropes
about what Jews are or supposedly are
it's about what you say about a foreign
power
and this foreign power obviously we
don't have to mince words is the state
of Israel so suddenly we now have an
extraordinary code of practice where if
you say something horrible about a
foreign State you are therefore being
prejudicial to Jews you are being
anti-semitic this couldn't hold up in
the court of law anywhere if I said
something horrible about Iceland or I
say something horrible about America or
Canada or you name the country you know
so long as I'm not actually provoking a
hate crime but I'm just saying let's
imagine the place is called okay it's
we'll retain you and I say oh ruritania
it's terrible they do awful things to
people in ruritania and then that's not
going to stand up in a court of law so
we have a code of practice that only
works inside institutions about barring
people as to whether they can belong or
not well fine institutions need codes of
practice but the idea that it should
depend on what you say about a foreign
power and irony of ironies this week
that foreign power has passed
legislation that is discriminatory
against 1.8 million of its own the
people his own citizens it's past
legislation I mean you couldn't make it
up
you know that in the very week that this
happens we're debating whether you
should say something nasty or not about
this country I mean in fact there are
people in the state of Israel at the
moment liberal zionists saying stuff
about Israel that if you said it here
now inside the labor party you get
chucked out exactly so uh the harrettes
uh leader writers would be would be
witch-hunted out of the labor party for
what they're writing every day yeah
there's an article in the Washington
Post this week by a guy who describes
himself as an Israeli American who's
obviously a liberal Zionist who is
absolutely appalled with the state of
Israel he can hardly hold himself back
from saying stuff about Netanyahu and
about the state of Israel and the fact
that you know the way it discredits
Israel and the way it draws it you know
drawing into his his his if you like his
attack on on the state of Israel he's
not using classic anti-semitic tropes of
course not but at the same time he's
describing his own way people said well
that sounds like singling out Israel
remember this is one of the things that
one of the examples yeah so in fact even
now right imagine if I was in the labor
party I've singled out Israel so I
better stop now and I better talk about
ruritania America Britain
um and uh Egypt even though we do all
the time in any case so that I'm not
singling it out and in any case we don't
single it out we attack Saudi Arabia on
an hourly basis indeed what has Jeremy
said unlike almost any other politician
in the last 20 years has said in his
position that we can no longer go on
selling arms to Saudi Arabia wimps
reaching a new arrangement with Saudi
Arabia it cannot go on doing this
because Saudi Arabia is engaged in a war
and by proxy we're involved in that war
as well but also you know we've we
in a sense indirectly been involved in
some of the lines of of terrorism that
have originated in Saudi Arabia that
we've been proxy in that as well and
this is an appalling relationship to be
in a Jeremy corbyn has actually stood up
about that whereas you know bar one or
two back benches to their credit on both
sides of the house who've said it and
Jeremy when he was in fact a bank
Venture but front bench is absolutely
consistently considered absolutely
consistently have backed the
relationship between the UK and Saudi
Arabia so we say singling out Israel
well you know the Saudis probably think
that you know Jeremy corbyn is singled
out Saudi Arabia exactly Professor
Michael Rosen thanks for joining us on
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